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Can you add additional bones to the avatar skeleton
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Ashantaey

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:08 pm    Post subject: Can you add additional bones to the avatar skeleton Reply with quote

Hi Smile

I was wondering if the default avatar skeleton can be extended with extra bones like if you for example want to add wings that have a fix point to 'Spine03' but you want to animate the extended tips and make extra bones in between from start (Spine03') to end to have a finer skinning (or physiques) control.

I know this can be done with accessories but it does not have to be an acc. perse but maybe a more complex piece of clothing for which the default skeleton may proof limitations.

Thanks in advance for answering.


Last edited by Ashantaey on Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't add custom .XSF files to clothing items. I really wish you could.
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Ashantaey

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand that, but I noticed when I attach a new bone to one of the avatar's skeleton's one and export that xsf it includes it in the list, (then exportng XMF'S to that file instead of the default xsf )but if I understand your reply IMVU will not recognize it?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manually adding xsf to asset folder would not work either? I find it a challenge to accept there is not a way to get it done. Maybe some people have tried something similar before Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It cant be done.
when you upload true clothing items, we don't export or upload the Skelton we use the one from imvu.
for this to work , have to be the original mesher / imvu to change the bones or give us the option to upload a new one or replace it , but is not how it works for clothing products.
but for the example you are talking about , is not clothing, no sure what you mean, you should be able to do it.
same they do it with long hair or furry ears ( animated ones)
base is fix to the head bone and the rest to different bones to follow the avatar movements or their own bones animation.
Quote:
like if you for example want to add wings that have a fix point to 'Spine03' but you want to animate the extended tips and make extra bones in between from start (Spine03') to end to have a finer skinning (or physiques) control.

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Ashantaey

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaleman31 wrote:
It cant be done.
when you upload true clothing items, we don't export or upload the Skelton we use the one from imvu.
for this to work , have to be the original mesher / imvu to change the bones or give us the option to upload a new one or replace it , but is not how it works for clothing products.
but for this , is not clothing, no sure what you mean. you should be able to do it.
like they do it with long hair or furry ears ( animated ones)
base is fix to the head bone and the rest to different bones to follow the avatar movements.
Quote:
like if you for example want to add wings that have a fix point to 'Spine03' but you want to animate the extended tips and make extra bones in between from start (Spine03') to end to have a finer skinning (or physiques) control.


Yes you are right. I have tested a few things and indeed you run into obstructions of the system. It would be welcome if IMVU could integrate an option to ADD an additional bone structure that is linked to the original skeleton structure within the meshing program when making clothing meshes. (IMVU would never give the option to replace the original skeleton structure because that is gonna give disasters. But I don't see why adding would not be possible.)

I know with accessories it can be done but for now not with clothing. Thanks for answering! Very Happy
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Keef

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure what the hesitation is in making it as an accessory unless you need the wings to be influenced by more than one of the avatar's default bones.

Only real customer side difference between a clothing derived add-on vs an accessory derived add-on would be where it would show up in the catalog and in their inventory. (Well, that and if it is an accessory they won't have the ID conflict issues we have with things made as clothing.)

Agree that add-on bones would be AMAZING, especially for skirts, capes, scarves, ponytails. The problem would be all custom poses would not have info for those additional bones. It's a shame the default avie wasn't originally built with them.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote the wings as an example but yes I intended it for skirts etc. Since they are a challenge to weight to the legs. Upper body is less of an issue. In most cases a skin wrap after a skin conversion tool used on an original body part works very well.

Legs would definitely benefit from additional bones. With the exception custom poses are then again an issue as you say. Gosh I am not a fan of a system that limits itself lol. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silly question: isn't anything you can do with Physique (etc, etc) without adding the actual bones?
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Ashantaey

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MissFeistyMaria wrote:
Silly question: isn't anything you can do with Physique (etc, etc) without adding the actual bones?


Silly question. Read again and make sure you get things before answering. I pretty much know how physiques and skinning work. Do you actually know what skin wrapping is or don't you know that either? (Skin wrap is beneficial to weight a higher polygon model based on the skinning of a similar lower poly model, it safes a lot of work.)

Let me explain again: DEFAULT skeleton is only a few bones that works in most cases fine although the legs can be a challenge to weight complex skirts and dresses to etc. The ability to add extra bones could create a finer degree of control when it comes down to physiques or skinning.

I do get how IMVU initially started and how they created a skeleton with a few bones that worked well in the early days. People are nowadays getting more skilled in creating higher polygon dresses or complex clothing now beautiful applications like Marvelous Designer (for exmaple) give more people access to create beautiful HD meshes for which that default skeleton may eventually start to limit fine physiques control.

When you use a biped in 3d software you can actually choose how many spine bones you may want for example. Normally a character mesh would be created with having the skeleton structure in mind and vica versa. More complex models would benefit with a more complex skeleton structure.

IMVU only has so many bones Wink

Animation studios go even further. They build skeletons and even entire muscle systems, taking apart one of their models would baffle your mind. Way too complex for IMVU.

I tried to have more control over dress meshes but I find what I wished for is not available as of yet. Here is my small hope it may be one day Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can create a new avatar which *.xsf contains additional bones, but you'll be required to make special clothes which go with this avatar only. Plus, depending on the order you're adding bones, it can make avatar incompatible with default animations, pose spots, or break it completely. No extra bones can be put to clothing product itself.

Plus as you mentioned Marvelous Designer, its mesh structure makes the products made with it painfully difficult to weight/skin. Even if you had access to extra bones, it wouldnt help you with MD meshes. They arent meant for real-time 3d applications and require physics simulation (which IMVU of course doesnt support) to behave correctly.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DimitriX89 wrote:
You can create a new avatar which *.xsf contains additional bones, but you'll be required to make special clothes which go with this avatar only. Plus, depending on the order you're adding bones, it can make avatar incompatible with default animations, pose spots, or break it completely. No extra bones can be put to clothing product itself.

Plus as you mentioned Marvelous Designer, its mesh structure makes the products made with it painfully difficult to weight/skin. Even if you had access to extra bones, it wouldnt help you with MD meshes. They arent meant for real-time 3d applications and require physics simulation (which IMVU of course doesnt support) to behave correctly.


Thank you Smile That is a very good reply. I am willing to do personal testing with the information I have been given. Thanks so much! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a side note, IMVU does mention they're hoping to bring something along the lines of normal mapping . If they do , Marveleous Deisgner would be an awesome tool to create high def normal maps for your low poly clothing.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nums wrote:
As a side note, IMVU does mention they're hoping to bring something along the lines of normal mapping . If they do , Marveleous Deisgner would be an awesome tool to create high def normal maps for your low poly clothing.


Thank you! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I add some bones to imvu sceleton. Most thing the numbers of old bones must stay same
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